Imposter Syndrome Academia

Hey there, welcome to "Leading the Field," the podcast where we go behind the scenes of successful leaders and dig into their journeys, challenges, and accomplishments throughout their careers. I'm Simon Phillips, your host, and today I've got the pleasure of introducing a dear friend and all-around awesome leader who has made a real impact in various areas of his career.

So, let me tell you about Ian Cleverdon, our guest for today. I actually met Ian way back in 2000 when I was just starting my own business, and he was a relationship manager at a big ol' bank. It was a chance encounter that turned into a lasting friendship and a shared love for personal development. You never know where life will take you, right?

During our chat, Ian shares his remarkable journey, starting from his humble beginnings in Southport, England, all the way to his impressive 35-year career with Lloyds Bank. Despite coming from a family with limited resources, he worked hard, got himself an education, and became the first in his family to attend university. And, like all astute people he chose to study in God's Country at Bangor University in North Wales. 😉

Come join us as Ian spills the beans on how he went from being a branch manager to becoming a change management expert within Lloyds Bank. We dive into the misconceptions about working in a big organisation and get a glimpse of the diverse roles he took on throughout his time there. He did it all, leading training teams, spearheading strategic transformations—you name it. Ian's career is a shining example of adaptability, creativity, and a burning passion for getting things done.

However, after 35 years of success, Ian found himself at a crossroads when life threw a curveball and he needed to take a leave of absence. That's when Manchester Metropolitan University stepped in with a unique opportunity for him to join their faculty as a senior lecturer in banking and finance. Talk about turning a new page! Ian embraced the challenge, fought off that "Imposter Syndrome," and brought his wealth of industry experience into the classroom, making a real impact on his students.

In our conversation, Ian also spills the beans about his GC Impact Profile, which revealed his innate qualities as an Implementer and Strategist. We dig into how these traits shaped his work approach, the value he brings to the table, and the obstacles he faced along the way. Ian's ability to get things done and his unwavering commitment to delivering results have been absolute game-changers throughout his career. But he's not afraid to admit the importance of delegation and finding that sweet spot for workload balance.

As we dig deeper into Ian's journey, we uncover the strengths and challenges tied to his Game Changer score, which turned out to be one of his lowest. We discover how his ability to stay focused and brush off distractions has been a major asset, especially when he's tackling individual work or taking charge of projects.

So, get ready for this captivating episode of "Leading the Field" as we dive into Ian Cleverdon's inspiring story of resilience, growth, and leadership. From his early days in a small coastal town to becoming a change catalyst in a massive organisation, Ian's journey is proof of the power of determination and seizing new opportunities. Stick around for a mind-blowing conversation filled with invaluable insights and practical wisdom from a leader who truly knows how to lead the field.

Episode Transcript

Simon Phillips
Welcome back, everyone. This is Leading the field, the podcast from Simon Phillips and the people who are powering us, which is the GC index. And we'll maybe come back to have a think about the GC index a little bit later, but I want to introduce you to a really good friend of mine and a long term connection and somebody who I think has for a long time been leading the field in a number of different areas in the work that he does.

Simon Phillips
So I want to introduce you to Ian Clevedon. Ian, how are you doing?

Ian Cleverdon
I'm doing well. Thanks very much for the invite Simon.

Simon Phillips
Oh, my pleasure. It's lovely to see you. Ian and I, we go back quite a few years to when I first got started in business it was about 2000. Ian, I bet you can’t, Can you remember that far back?

Ian Cleverdon

I do, actually, yes. Yeah, I remember it very well. Yeah. So I suppose we can't talk about brand names and things like that, but working for a very well known bank at the time as a relationship manager, and that's how we met. I think you were applying to the bank. I'd just moved into business banking, having been a retail branch manager, in the north west of England.

Ian Cleverdon
So I think it was altrincham that I moved into and was fascinated by the business and what you're aiming to do and we kept in contact from there. So, you know, as things move obviously with customers that I looked after there and as my career moved on into other things, you do lose contact with customers and the relationships handed over, but we kept the friendship going, our thing mainly down to the fact that we had quite a lot in common in terms of the developments of people.

Ian Cleverdon
And from then, funnily enough I moved into change management as one of my, you know, that that the ongoing career things I do.

Simon Phillips
Yeah no, it's great. And you couldn't have been more supportive either as you know brand new into business on my own and to have somebody who was not just there, you know, completing a form and opening up an account for me, but somebody was actually asking genuinely interested questions was great. Made me feel like, you know, there was some value in what I was doing.

Ian Cleverdon
Oh, that's good to know.

Simon Phillips
Yeah, it was great. So, Ian, for the listeners, for the viewers, whenever people are catching up with us for this leading the field episode, give us a little bit of background about you. Tell us your origin story. How did you get to where you are today?

Ian Cleverdon
Oh gosh, how I started off. Well, that grew up in Southport, which is on the in the north west of England, on the on the on the sea so the seaside resort and sort of things upbringing very little money in the family. And I sort of went from there just trying to do my best at school, went to university first generation you know first person to go to university in my family, went to Bangor University in North Wales.

Ian Cleverdon
And throughout that time and from from a teenage age, I've always been involved. I've read the wonderful love of music passed on from my sister who is older than me. So music is a thread through my life and we talk about after a little bit later, but ended up going through university. Some might remember the milk round if the people are old enough when you know firms go round and interview and you know look for graduates.

Ian Cleverdon
And I was lucky to get a job with with Lloyds Bank at the time back in 1983. And I stayed with Lloyds for 35 years, you know, and I think, oh, that's a double murder sentence, particularly, you know, working in the bank, you might think. But I actually when I totaled up the rolls i’d done. I've done 17 different roles.

Ian Cleverdon
And I think that's one of the things in a large organization that often it's such there's a misconception that, oh, you know, say it'll be Groundhog Day. You're doing the same things. I've had a fantastic career in the bank. You know, I started off working in branches and in the end I was leading a team of trainers and parts of a big change and development so that commercial banking parts of Lloyds was transforming the way it did business.

Ian Cleverdon
So example yourself, going back to 2000, you want to open a business account, you have to go and see a business manager and now it can be done online. So, you know, certainly to, you know, corporate levels, all of that account you fill in and you start the process online and I was involved in the training and developing the training for our colleagues.

Ian Cleverdon
And in this not just a matter of how they change their job, but in some cases they felt really threatened because they would have that initial interaction. It would all it would all be done on the Internet, you know, as would be said. So so that was it. 35 years doing that. And I had an opportunity just to family personal reasons.

Ian Cleverdon
I had to take some unpaid leave just to help out my father in law who was really ill. During that time, I was approached to by Manchester Metropolitan University and there was a job going and it really meant because I was traveling to London, i think i worked in the States for a short while, you know, I was traveling extensively so I was away from home a lot.

Ian Cleverdon
Being in the university allowed me to be at home every night and became a senior lecturer in banking and finance. So actually, initially there was imposter syndrome that kicked in, you know, thinking like, how can I deal with that? I'm not Professor, I've done a master's degree and learning and development. But yeah, how can I stand in front of students?

Ian Cleverdon
It was actually quite easy particularly because I'd done the learning development and training aspects. I was used to standing on my feet in terms of at the bank and absolutely love.

Simon Phillips
To come back to that notion of imposter syndrome. And I know you do some work with people in thinking about careers and all that sort of stuff. And quite often when I'm talking to people who are considering a shifting career later in life and and that, you know, they might want to do something dramatically different, what holds them back is thinking about imposter syndrome.

Simon Phillips
But in your particular instance there, I guess it's recognizing that they approached you because, you know, for a very specific reason, you had some skills and some experience and some knowledge in areas that they felt would be valuable in their space. And so it's like that can probably, you know, help you move through that thought process of imposter syndrome.

Ian Cleverdon
Yeah, I think so. I mean, I was approached by I know a colleague who works at the university as a senior lecturer who had worked in Lloyds and, you know, knew of me and I suppose knew of the capabilities that I had within the organization. So, that helped. And then I had to go through the interview process with the dean and the panel and all of that.

Ian Cleverdon
But that went great, you know, And I thought at that stage, you know, having just left Lloyds and then went to the university, even So at that stage for me, I you know, actually, if not, you know, it's not colleagues in the organization. This is 18 year old first year and talking about the organization and also picking up things such as ethics that you know, yet hopefully have operated in an ethical manner in my career.

Ian Cleverdon
But I had to then learn the theory and then be convincing about the theory. So that was where some of the imposter syndrome came in thinking, you know, I am not a a professor of ethics or anything like that. But simply what I had to rest on was that I've been doing the job. So whenever you got a situation of, you know, you think, Well, actually I, I always had a story to be able to back up the theory, if you like, just based on the experience.

Simon Phillips
How long was that transition? And, you know, did you have a big gap between finishing one job and starting.

Ian Cleverdon
You know, about six months and I took six months unpaid leave just to help with, you know, various but with the family and so on. And obviously, having had a little bit of a sense of been at the University to have a look around and get a feel for it. And, you know, it felt comfortable. It felt the right thing to do.

Ian Cleverdon
You know, I mean, 35 years for the same organization. Now there's a pension that goes that as well. But to meet the leap and cut off from that, that almost emphasis the imposter syndrome, am I going to be too worthy of it? But, you know, it was a great thing, mainly from the family's perspective, because it meant to be home every night.

Ian Cleverdon
And as you know, which was the key at the time, but, you know, thoroughly enjoyed the job.

Simon Phillips
And I know you've now started off in your own business, and we'll come back to that after the break. But I just wanted to weave in a little bit about your new understanding of the GC index, which we've gone through recently, where it emerged that you've got tons and tons of energy for implementer, getting things done, making things happen.

Simon Phillips
In fact, you scored a ten out of ten on, on implementer backed up by strategists. So purely pragmatic in in approach according to the numbers. So maybe you could share a little bit about how that came to life, if you like, throughout your career. Where where were you most comfortable? Where did you at the most value, do you believe, from your perspective, thinking about those particular energies of implementer and strategist.

Ian Cleverdon
Yeah, I think the energies, you know, this massive positives in that. When I saw the scores, it was me all over. It is absolutely the case. And I think just leading into that in doing the questionnaire, which didn't take that long, the most important thing was not to overthink it, it's just to watch your reaction. And that was something I did and that certainly played into the scores. Its interesting because probably two thirds of my career thinking about the Lloyd's career that I've had, I've been in a line ‘manager situation, probably three quarters of it, actually.

Ian Cleverdon
So, you know, you can think, you know, you need to be more of a leader. You know, you are managing a team. But in terms of what was doing that bank overall has strategy, you know, there's always a medium term plan. There's objectives are set every three years and there's a very clear description about the job you need to do.

Ian Cleverdon
So whilst there were elements that I did have to be creative about and think of different ways of doing things, certainly in the learning developments area, you still ultimately are working on behalf of somebody else. So the implementer is something that is taken years of development that, you know, if that makes sense, is that I've always been in a situation where I probably had to follow rules and have had, say, perform the particular tasks that's been set by somebody else.

Simon Phillips
And, and that for you, you know, assuming the implementer had always been there if you like, in your profile that for you would have felt really comfortable because having all of that structure, having very clear strategy, knowing what the specific objectives are that your, your being set would have just set you free to bring all of your energy to your day to day tasks of just getting things done and delivering things.

Simon Phillips
That was the message that kept popping out of your profile for me, when we were reading, it was just this like rely on Ian, he can deliver what you're after and as I said to you, that's always been my perspective of you as well, is if you say you're going to do something, you do it.

Ian Cleverdon
Yeah. There was a phrase in that when we talked about the results that are leading by example. That was me to a tee. I always wanted to make sure wants to be one of those leaders that could prove I could do the job. And if I expected somebody else to do it, then, you know, I needed to be able to do it myself.

Ian Cleverdon
There's a downside to that in the it means that, you know, particularly if there's something that you enjoy doing, it might be that you're not as good a delegate. And I think that came out of the feedback as well in terms of the implementer is sometimes it's, yeah, I'll do it. Particularly if it's something that you enjoy doing, But theres two problems with that.

Ian Cleverdon
Firstly, you know you very tight for time so I something I've always been there's always been a to do list and there's always been things left at the end, at the end of the day, but also it can mean that you don't delegate enough as well and therefore others aren’t learning in the same way. So yeah, ten's great, you know, it was me to  a tee. I'm interesting, but that has its issues.

Simon Phillips
Yeah, absolutely right. You know, it's a it's a great thing to have so much energy in a specific area. But the downsides are there as well. Equally, we can have a really low score in an area and think, oh, does that mean I've got no energy for that? But there's pluses and minuses there. And in your instance, for example, that Game Changer score was one of your lowest.

Simon Phillips
And the plus side of that is that you're not easily distracted. You know, you've got something to do. You're quite happy to put something aside and come back to it later. How has that helped you, you know, going through your career?

Ian Cleverdon
I lot actually, because I suppose certainly the latter parts of the career and I was a lot of the work, although I was actually actually, you know, managing a team that teams distant and there's only a small team as well. Often a lot of what I did was individual work. I'm just thinking of some of the training design that I did in some some of the programs and change management programs I worked on.

Ian Cleverdon
It was just me. And although I might be line managing other people, they weren't actually directly working for me. So there's this element of being self-sufficient, you know, so that you'd meet with those. You'd have a, you know, coach discussion, a catch up every so often. But the focus of the day job in certain cases at that time was just down to me.

Ian Cleverdon
So that's where probably, you know, I was less of a having to be a team player and think about them all. It's just I'm just certainly getting the job done with what I needed to do. And I think that that that was more relevant in the latter part of my work. And also the other bit perhaps you talk about in the minutes.

Ian Cleverdon
Well, I'm currently doing is where I am my own boss. Yeah, I'm solely responsible for it. So, you know, I need to look at everything. And this is where helping me for the future really, this has been a really good anchored time, if you like, for me to consider my strengths and things I need to work.

Simon Phillips
Yeah. The question I was going to ask you was, in that sense of not being easily distracted. So you, you had a job to do there at the bank, which was to change the way, if you like, that business accounts were managed and from a from a customer's perspective, it felt like we were losing something when we didn't have that personal connection with our with our sort of relationship manager.

Simon Phillips
I'm just imagining that there would have been a fair bit of feedback and noise like that around the activities that you were doing. But my my assumption is you were you were quite effective at just putting that aside as being something that somebody else needs to worry about. Strategically. You're just getting on with delivering the the business objective, which is to transform the way that that activity is done.

Ian Cleverdon
Yes, absolutely. I think the major issues that I saw and because we had focused customer focus groups when we first started saying were moving this online because of the way that the whole industry was going really and actually makes a lot of sense because how create, you know, it allows a relationship manager more time to be able to speak to existing clients and talk about loans and finance and so on.

Ian Cleverdon
In terms of dealing with the customers, that was somebody else's role to do. The focus groups where I did face issues was with my colleagues. So the colleagues that I was training and because they felt threatened that their jobs were going. So part of my role was to be able to put that to it, to to deal with that.

Ian Cleverdon
Having said that, whilst I had to deal with that in a training session, ultimately that was down to their, directors, regional directors to get message across. And these some of those cases, even those leaders at that high level sometimes didn't agree with what was going on and what they had. But again, they were working towards the bank strategy.

Ian Cleverdon
So that was something that ultimately I had no control over. I just had to focus on making sure that I got the message across and the benefits over to them as effectively as I could.

Simon Phillips
Yeah, And as I say, your your profile, because it was so strong on just getting things done, I could imagine you just being able to have that focus and say, no, that's not that's almost like it's brilliant skill to have as a manager of change because there's always scope creep in any project that you do. And, and you know, you just wouldn't have had any particular, you know, based on the numbers, you wouldn't have had a lot of patience for that.

Simon Phillips
You have just been like, no, that's that's phase two. If it's going to happen, it's all absolutely.

 Ian Cleverdon
And it's been years since I've heard the phrase scope creep. You just brought it all back to me. There was plenty of how senior with that. But equally, you know, that was something that I had my focus. I had used the phrase, you know, to implement. I knew my role very clearly what I needed to do and how key was effective .

Simon Phillips
Brilliant. Ian, We've got to that point where we better have a little bit of a break and give give our friends and colleagues who are listening an opportunity for a quick comfort break. So we're going to have a couple of minutes and then we'll be right back. And I want to hear all about what you're doing now.

Simon Phillips
Welcome back, everyone. This is leading the field. With me, Simon Phillips and my special guest, Ian Cleverdon. We've been exploring how Ian's natural energy for getting things done has driven a lot of the activity in his career. Took him from banking into lecturing, and then all of a sudden he decides he's going to set up his own business and give himself a whole load of new headaches.

Simon Phillips
So all over the GC index proclivities. So because when you I mean, you've probably found this already Ian, when you start your own business, you've got to be able to do everything across the whole business process.

Ian Cleverdon
Most definitely. And I think in setting up the business, I've been fortunate that in my banking career, I've been like yourself, and we talked about that at the beginning of the podcast and helped a lot of people start their businesses through helping coaching and talking and advice. And it's really different when the tables turned and it's down to you and you know, you're thinking financially, you know, you’re setting a new business up, but that was a help in seeing how other businesses had done things and different approaches.

Ian Cleverdon
But yes, a big thing. So what I'm doing now and I've talked about music at this at the start of it throughout my career, music's been a hobby, you know, on a semiprofessional basis as well as a guitarist. I play various string instruments. I've written several songs and a couple of instrumental albums all over a period of time.

Ian Cleverdon
I've played in bands, you know, at weekends and, you know, just a spare time really into a lot of work for charity, as they say, and using those skills because I had a full time salary. It's allowed me to, to use those skills and have fun doing it as well. Yes, that's now turning into this business. So my business is called Karona sounds.

Ian Cleverdon
There's two aspects to it. So one is to do composition for film, TV and jingles and podcast theme tunes, if anyone is interested, you know, contact me about that. But also one of the thing that I'm working on mainly at the moment is a podcast series called Half Hour Mentor. It's like, how did that come about?

Ian Cleverdon
Well, the university, we often have guest lectures of alumni or, you know, various leaders that come in and share how they got to where they are? In lockdown. We couldn't do that as you can, as I'm sure with everybody would appreciate. So I just thought this idea because I was also an employability leader or our department so working on careers and given advice to some students with interviews and so on and the idea of doing some guest lectures online and I called it 20 minutes with and it was purely internal within the university and but in 20 minutes and sometimes it stretched to 30.

Ian Cleverdon
I was just having a quick view of somebodies career and almost like a sense of pocket sized mentor, if you like, in a way. So so but then transformed that for actually this when I looked at what was sort of a big cost podcast from when I looked at what's available on the marketplace, there's a lot of US versions types of things like that.

Ian Cleverdon
But there was nothing that was UK based or that had a particular focus. So long story short, I spoke to the university they agreed to sponsor, that was Manchester Met, they agreed to sponsor the first series, which is is out there now ten episodes, and it's interviewing people from a wide variety of backgrounds about where they got where they how they started off, what got them to doing the job they do, and also importantly, what issues and challenges they've had along the way.

Simon Phillips
And it was that that caught my eye actually, because the you know, obviously I knew because we've been friends, I knew where you were doing various bits and pieces. And then all of a sudden the the half hour mentor was up on social media. It's like, oh, this is interesting because like you, I seen that there was a bit of a dearth in terms of, you know, real support and and insights.

Simon Phillips
I think that's there's always things you can be there's always things you can study and, you know, but what you're providing through the mentors that you get through the doors is that real insight and personal experience to give the listener a sense of, you know, ahh that's what's possible. That's what I could do if I followed that line of inquiry.

Simon Phillips
And I think I think that's one of the reasons I wanted you on to get you onto the podcast, because you're really leading the field in terms of showing people what's possible in that space. And as you say, the target audience are the younger generation who are just sorting it all out in their heads at the moment, what they're going to do next.

Ian Cleverdon
Yes, definitely. I mean, you know, you think, well, who do you speak to in terms of that, particularly to try and keep it? You know, that is the clues in the title about half an hour is to keep the interview to 30 minutes and how much you can get in that. So whilst the university sponsored the first series and obviously wanted quite a few connections within that.

Ian Cleverdon
So the dean of the business school, Professor Hannah Holmes for example, who's I'm sure she won't mind me saying, but it's very early forties and you know, to have a that type, you know, a female at that age as a professor and in charge of a business school, you would think, Crikey that is that, you know, how did you get to that stage.

Ian Cleverdon
And Andy Burnham The mayor of Greater Manchester so he's, he's episode three and you know often some people would hear students say, I'd like to get into politics. How would you do that? And he shares that on his podcast with a really great insight. So that's the important thing, is have to also have a wide spread. Most I worked in the accounting, finance and banking departments of the business school.

Ian Cleverdon
It's good to have a wider knowledge of just not just those that work within the university or work within finance and that the journeys have been fascinating, you know, and I think that in the future that's well, I'll branch out to look at a lot of different types of careers. And everybody's got a very similar message, you know, that they didn't know what they wanted to do when they were a teenager, for example, you know, very few did or some some had a really set idea of what they wanted to do.

Ian Cleverdon
And then they change because they I think often as we use in the podcast, you get to a fork in the road so you know, which way do I go? And that will dictate the way that your professional career, but also therefore, you know, your personal life you can go to.

Simon Phillips
Absolutely. And for those who are, you know, wanting a quick testimonial, you did the music. I don't know if you can remember this. You did the music for my my first online course way back in 2010, something like that. It was certainly quite a few years ago. And the idea of, you know, an online course with background music is, you know, that was quite original at the time.

Simon Phillips
But the that was that was another example to me of where you just you say, you know, when you say, yes, you're going to do something. And it was done before I'd even had time to think about it. You know, it was just brilliant. So, I mean, I've listened to a few of the episodes, a half hour mentor.

Simon Phillips
I just think it's fabulous. But how can how can other people find it? And you said you've finished the first series now.

Ian Cleverdon
Yes. So you can search, you can go to halfhourmentor.com or search for @halfhourmentor around all the social and the socials. I'm not on Tik Tok, but Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and there are links to all of the the episodes that if you go it's a halfhourmentor.com to the website there's all of the episodes there it's on Apple and Apple Podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, you know, all the usual outlets, if you like, for that.

Simon Phillips
Excellent. Well, Ian, we're sort of coming to the close of this interview, but what I like to do is get a record from people to add to the leading the field playlists, which will also be available on Spotify, etc.. So is there a record that springs to mind if I ask you for your contribution, what record maybe inspires you or something that's been along with you on the journey?

Simon Phillips
What comes to mind?

Ian Cleverdon
This is the most difficult question of them all, because I've been involved in music all the time and you know that the favorite song changes all the time. I think the one that probably resonates most with me is Wichita Lineman by It's written by Jimmy Webb. Yeah, Glen Campbell sang. It was written by Jimmy Webb. And mainly because it's it said if anybody looks into it or knows it's an unfinished song it was it was never actually finished And there's all sorts of theories about it both that the story every time I hear that that story, I get something different from it and you know that that's it.

Ian Cleverdon
You can listen to a piece of music many, many times and I'll say it's got a certain feel to it, you know, I mean, how many how many interpretations of the bird song? I don't know. Hopefully probably not that many. But Wichita Lineman, if you listen to the words and you you understand from that person who's singing it, you know that the lineman himself, he knew about the family, the person that's behind it all are so many different aspects to it.

Ian Cleverdon
So I'll go in. Wichita Lineman Glen Campbell sings it. Jimmy Webb wrote it.

Simon Phillips
Yeah, love it. Thank you. And make a brilliant addition to the playlist. I'm looking forward to adding that one and listening to it yet again because I think it's one of those songs that accompanied me as I grew up as well. My mum is a big fan of Glen Campbell, so I listen to a lot of his music.

Simon Phillips
Brilliant. Ian What a pleasure to spend some time with you today on the on the show and anything else you'd like to share with the listeners in terms of, you know, how they can get in touch if they're interested in their own jingle or you working with them maybe on some, you know, significant compositions. What is it?

Simon Phillips
How can people get a hold of you?

Ian Cleverdon
Yeah. So the best thing is if you can go to you've also got a link to the half hour mentor which we talked about before but i’ve Karona, karonasound.co.uk. You could contact me there or [email protected] I've actually worked on an online game recently as I've written a soundtrack for that which asked you to go at the game is due to go live any time, so it will be an original soundtrack for that coming out and put jingles and you know, i’ve done podcasting jingles for people.

Ian Cleverdon
Anything soundtrack wise. If you need music specifically, do contact me. And equally, you know, if you feel perhaps if you listen to the episodes of the podcasts and you feel either you know somebody who would be great as a guest on that or perhaps yourself even then, please do drop me a note and we can have a chat.

Simon Phillips
Wonderful. Thank you very much. That was Ian Cleverdon here as an amazing guest on leading the field podcast with me, Simon Phillips. Stay tuned for more next week. Until then, stay safe and keep well.